Michigan's Otherside Paranormal Forums

I was at a paranormal conference this weekend and at night, one of the events was a panel discussion about the state of the Paranormal today. We thought the people on stage would be tearing at each others throats, but everyone was pretty calm. Jason & Grant from TAPS did a lot of the talking when it came to the media and it was interesting to say the least. There's a lot of debate today about the state of the paranormal and where it's going.

Two of the topics that I singled out were:

1. Paranormal TV shows and how they impact the paranormal in general
2. The sharing of evidence with paranormal teams and territoriality


Do you have an opinion on these topics? If so, let's get a good discussion going!

Amberrose

In regards to sharing evidence with other paranormal teams, I'll do it. We are all interested in a common denominator here...the paranormal. I want to do my part to assist other teams to find what I'm looking for. But, I also expect the same in return. I think it also helps to get another team in there to see if what I experienced happens to them. I don't see a problem with sharing information. The only time I won't share evidence is when an owner requests confidentiality.

In regards to media and the paranormal, I am a big fan of TAPS. I watch the show every Wednesday. But, I think that ghost hunting and the media has become a little overdone. I won't refuse an interview. But I am not in it for the publicity either. I think there is a lot of ghost hunters out there just in it for the publicity...Who can have the best website? Who can out do who? I am not here to compete with anyone. I think that some teams forget that no one are experts in the paranormal field.

Boy,
I guess the first thing I'd have to do is actually force myself to complete my opinions before I jump in the bath. Which is hard to do, because, I just happend to swing by my computer room on the way there. It just so happens, something has to distract me from 'my' time. Don't fret or cringe whilest reading folks, as i'm still donning my shorts! lol.
It's a bit strange to give my opinion regarding the paranormal in regards to TV.
Are we talking about shows which claim to be real ( like ghost hunters or most haunted ) or are we talking about fictionalized stories?
I would assume we are talking programs which 'report'. For me programs like Unsolved Mysteries and Sightings were the kickers. There was always something there that was honest. When paranormal groups were involved in the investigations, it was because they were hired by the television show. While they still made a bit of cash, it's a different sort of motivation than if a group had it's own show, where every rateing matters as well as every advertiser. So I think truth get's lost in the paranormal programs of today. Pretty much the only thing I believe while watching those programs are the historical sections where they tell about the actual background of the story in question. Does that mean I don't believe in ghosts or spirits? Well, not exactly.
I have little faith in the trickery of entertainment. You can do some much with effects and things, it's really hard for me to believe any weird activity on television, even if it IS real!
Now, onto the shareing of information.
You always take a risk when shareing information. Some are weary of it, some just don't care.
Either way, as far as paranormal investigation goes, it really doesn't matter.
More often I think the persons involved in the haunting want to get their story out!
So they'll tell you, and your grandma, and your spouse, and your rival paranormal group.
I suppose if there's info you don't want anybody knowing about, keep it to yourself. But,
don't count on other's doing the same if they find out about it. And really, they have no obligation to, it's just a matter of their personal ethics. I think the more shareing the better! I could never understand shipwreck hunters being territorial over a wreck they find. They don't own the wreck, and understand that, but some are weary of others damageing their 'find'. Same with ghost hunting I would assume. You don't mind shareing if you get the credit for the find, and nobody tramples on your investigation or investigation area.
With all that, i'm ready to take a bit of a nap in the tub.
Is that ethical?
I think not, however it may be consequentialism!
stv

OK, I'm going to chime in here because, well...I just have something to say about everything.

1. Paranormal TV shows and how they impact the paranormal in general

I feel that TV shows, with the paranormal as the focus, do both harm AND good to the community. Let's start with the bad, and end this section on a good note.

The BAD- There is a lot of bad information getting out to a national, sometimes world-wide audience. Bad information includes less than scientific "scientific" research protocols and procedures - evidence that is, at times, painfully obvious that it has been manufactured - misguided conclusions that a place is haunted and the creation of wild stories with no factual background. Although some of the blame can be placed on the main characters (psychics, investigators, hosts with no talent other than crying at the first sign of spookiness), its not entirely their fault. Creative editing and decisions from upper management can seriously damage the credibility of a team...just as much as the team going along with it. Investigations that are performed within less than controlled environments are putting out the message that “it’s OK to do it this way”, when it is clearly not the case. Certain protocols and simple common sense need to be followed, and I’m not seeing a lot of this. Although I could go on and on…and on… with examples, this would only lead to a name/blame game that would degrade the purpose of this debate.

There also comes into play the issue of ratings. A television series only lives as long as the its viewers interest. If we were to watch a team of investigators find nothing week after week, or a psychic/medium walk into house after house and announce that “nope, no one’s here”… it would be cancelled rather quickly. The need to produce evidence would be great. This expectation, I feel, would be of most interest to the “money people” in charge of the show. These shows have a responsibility I don’t believe they are aware of; they are creating legends. Eastern State Penitentiary, Taunton Castle, Waverly Hills Sanitarium, The Race Rock Lighthouse and other sites are now famous for their hauntings…but was the evidence genuine? Was it misinterpreted? Who knows. When the news broke about the show Most Haunted, exposed by one of its own as faking evidence… it leaves a mark on our reputation of a paranormal community. Sure, its Host Haunted…which really shouldn’t have been taken seriously in the first place, but people do. And all those people have taken in the extremely bad practices of that show.

That was only the reality shows; documentaries can fall short of what this community needs as well. Some Docs will present stories and legends of haunted sites that have been told over and over again. Problem is, they stick with the legends… or lean towards them for entertainment purposes. Other documentaries will lean one way or another (believers vs. skeptics) and will use complete idiots to represent the side the producers don’t like (then again, those idiots are really out there). There are rare videos that actually let the people decide for themselves. Truth may be stranger than fiction, but only because its been edited for television.

The GOOD- On a positive note, these programs do bring awareness of the paranormal to the world at large, even if it comes with a price. It brings more people out to conventions and lectures, in order to learn more and offer their own opinions. These shows offer a face to relate to, which can lead to meetings and contacts…which spreads the network of the paranormal community further and further.

If these shows are taken for what they are; entertainment, then there should be no problem. I like to see locations in which I probably won’t be able to visit myself. I like to see how other teams work, so that I can improve my own techniques and practices. If not for these shows, I might not have looked so deeply into subjects such as; how thermal cameras operate, how night vision works or the infamous “Point of Pull” theory (from Orbs or Dust: A Practical Guide to False Positive Evidence). I have these shows to thank for pushing me to research further into the sciences, expanding my working knowledge of the devices being used out there.

Whew…next section.

2. The sharing of evidence with paranormal teams and territoriality

2a- Sharing of Evidence- Look people, we are all facing the same, common goals. This is not a race, nor is there any Nobel price for the ghost hunter with the best photo of what they think is a ghost. The history books do not list every soldier that fought for this country, nor will the paranormal community remember every ghost hunter that forms a team. If you want to horde your evidence and not play nice with the rest of the community, dig a hole and climb in- we don’t want you anyway.

Was that harsh? Sure, but we’re in this together…that’s the bottom line. If you have data, evidence, case studies, experiments, etc., then share them with the rest of us. Fresh views on a topic may open up new ideas, and you’ll only get that from open communication (and sharing) with other teams.

There are scientific journals out there in which scientists will publish their work. It is not done for fame, it is done so that others can see what the author has discovered, others can check the author’s work to point out flaws, make recommendations and help offer improvements…and so on. It’s also to share the information with the scientific community. Do you get that? To SHARE with the community! Holy Crap, what a concept. The cool thing is that when it does pan out –becomes a breakthrough – that person, who wrote the article, will get credit for it.

We do have one such journal that is geared towards the paranormal; the Journal for Paranormal Research. They have begun taking on articles, thoroughly researched articles, to promote the paranormal in a more scientific light. I hope that this spurs others to be more detailed, more concerned with getting the right information out there… rather than the fairy tale ideas that some of these people are putting out as “fact”.

Which brings me to another point. Sharing information also comes with responsibilities. Opinion articles are not research. Research is research. Articles that make claims such as “The Meaning of the Colors of Orb” are doing as much a disservice to the paranormal community as people that fake ghost photographs with blue glow sticks. These type of articles have absolutely no factual backing- they are simply a product of an overactive imagination and the need for attention.

On a similar note, there is a responsibility issue when it comes to all of these “Ghost Hunting” certification classes that are offered. How can anyone certify another person in an area that no one understands? The majority of these groups are not even aware that they’re using their EMF meters wrong (Seriously, people…simply waving it around doesn’t give you a full reading on a single-axis meter). How many times have your read an intro to a workshop that says “learn the RIGHT way to perform an investigation”? I had no idea the “right” way had been discovered…it certainly wasn’t in any scientific journal.

2b- Territoriality – is freakin stupid. Ghost hunting teams do not own the sites they investigate. Trying to discredit another team, just because they investigated “your” site, is dishonest, deceitful, and makes you look like an ass.

Trying to keep a site to yourself goes against scientific study. I invite other teams to check up on the experiences of my team and I. On one hand, if another team can validate the claims my team makes. On the other hand, they could help to disprove a claim by finding something we missed. This is how we move forward, by checking up on each other’s work. Many will take that as an attack, rather than for what it is; making sure we’re doing everything right, keeping us on our toes.

Ok…I’m done for now.

Excellent points, Kenny.

In terms of the media.....

The phenomena we've seen, especially in recent years, is like a vicious circle. The media's portrayal of paranormal research entices viewers, but it is the interest of viewers that leads to programs that sensationalize the topic. The more sensationalized it becomes, the more viewers' interest is gained. The greater interest results in more programs, and in the need to "top" what has already been televised. The fact that it is grossly inaccurate and a serious misrepresentation of what good researchers do is of no concern to the media. Not only that, but it is of little to no concern to the average person watching the show on tv. Most people have no idea how they are being manipulated, and have no desire to be informed of this. It speaks volume about American culture and intellect in general, not just in terms of paranormal programming....but that's another forum and another topic altogether.

-------------------------------------------------------
If paranormal research is ever going to move forward, a lot of things need to happen. Perhaps the most important thing is to subject our work to peer review. Now that's a difficult thing to do, because I don't think anybody likes to be told they are wrong, or that their evidence or protocols may be problematic in some way. However, if we are ever going to make advances, we need to open ourselves up for criticism, actually listen to it, and made subsequent changes. (Instead of calling one another names, like "hack" or "photoshopper", or setting up "hate" groups on the internet )

All of this is, of course, assuming that people actually want the field to move forward. I'm beginning to think that, in spite of persistent claims otherwise, that the majority of ghost researchers are content with the status quo. They are content, because if things don't move forward they can continue to hold their beliefs close. Much of the work that is done in this field is based upon belief, rather than scientific evidence. Much of the "scientific evidence" that is put forward is based in some way upon belief. We do not have a strong foundation on which to build, so we need to start from the beginning. Belief is not a good foundation for scientific inquiry.

All of that is hard work, and it is hard work that may provide results that challenge the beliefs of many. Is this an uphill battle worth fighting? Are there enough serious minded individuals out there who are willing to take on this challenge?

In my opinion, it is a worthwhile cause. There are enough strange things that happen in this world to give reason to examine them. I think we all just need to be more willing to subject our work to the scrutiny of others, and to look at our own work and the work of others in a more objective manner.

OK...I am now officially stepping off of my soap box. Thanks for listening

Tonya

Oh man, there’s so many good starting points to jump right into I don’t even know where to start. First off, let me thank everyone for putting their two cents into this topic and taking the time to write well thought out responses to the debate questions. I like having good discussions like this because even if people don’t like to post themselves, or happen to just come across the site, they can steel read these and take something away from it hopefully.

And yeah Steve, I mainly was thinking of the non-fictional shows like “Ghost Hunters” and others. During the panel discussion we saw about this topic, the main issue brought up was how the media portrays paranormal investigation, and how that affects people interested back at home. If you’re into the paranormal and on Myspace, you might have noticed the flurry of ghost hunting teams that have formed since the beginning of “Ghost Hunters” and many of them credit the show as being their inspiration.

I’ve talked to many ghost hunters and teams who have been conducting investigations before the advent of the paranormal TV infestation and many of them are gritting their teeth because people from the their teens and upwards:

• Started out watching “Ghost Hunters”
• picked up an EMF detector, grabbed a Digital Camera at Best Buy
• threw up a MySpace page
• Came up with a logo
• Some get matching jackets with the logo (LOL)

But the point is, people are getting irritated because some of these people feel the only education they need is a couple episodes of “Ghost Hunters” and then they are ready to go into someone’s home who might be seriously scared or worried about their situation. I think the interest the paranormal TV shows has generated has been good, but does it hurt or help in the long run?

I agree with Kenny’s argument that they have their benefits and the downsides. Everyone brought up the central idea that the reason these shows can hurt research is because they sensationalize. Like Steve mentioned in the second pointing on here, “I think truth gets lost in the paranormal programs of today.” And Kenny mentioned how they breath life into legends, lending them credibility has “real” stories to be investigated.


TEAMS SHARING

As for the teams sharing, I agree with everyone who posted something. It can be scary to put your stuff out there for fear of rejecting or critiquing, and also the fear that someone will take your stuff and not give you credit. But those are the risks we need to take to keep things moving forward.

I really like Tonya’s statement: “Much of the “scientific evidence” that is put forward is based in some way upon belief. We do not have a strong foundation on which to build, so we need to start from the beginning. Belief is not a good foundation for scientific inquiry.”

To me, “Belief is not a good foundation for scientific inquiry” is a very powerful statement and when applied to the current state of the paranormal, even more powerful. Currently, a lot of ideas in the paranormal stem from belief systems and a belief system cannot be tested. I think that’s what makes the paranormal so hard to define and study in the first place. The idea of a ghost or “spirit” changes with every religion. Bottom line- there is something there. It’s been observed since we have been on this planet and I actually believe it’s been “belief” that has held us back and pigeon holed us in a sense.


Amberrose

Well for the most part I do agree with Team Sharing, as if your truly trying to do this from a point of science, then your work must be able to be reproduced, its kind of hard to reproduce work if you do not share findings.....I don't know maybe I guess if you have a gift to know what other people are thinking you can, but I have not developed that talent yet....

I also do not agree with the whole my area thing........Do you own the land, or better yet the entity they are investigating....

As for media, I think it hurts more....We now have a bunch of ppl out there who are doing it for the scare or because it is the next cool thing... Lets look at the end results of this....Best results they get bored and become hard core dis-believers........Worse results they find themselves opening a door that should not be opened....Hmmm Hey Joe lets go up and check out the old house at the top of the hill...I am sure the 200 year old entity that slaughter his whole family will not mind if we poke around..........Bottom Line is not all of us knew what we were doing when we started out....I didn't I can admit it......and we make mistakes.....but those of us who started doing this before T.A.P.S did it from a love of wanting to figure out what was out there....back in my teenage years trust me it didn't score points with the girls for sure....


Bottom Line: If you are going to do this be prepared to be disappointed...not every site I have been to had a apirition appear...in fact most the time we got scarred is cause some yutz in our group said something stupid and started the whole mass hallucination effect going....and there was nothing there really to be scared of..I am sure some of you have gone through that....

but if you persist and truly want to do this because you really want to know....and not cuz its cool on TV...and stick it out.....you will have your eyes opened, but like I said before, and I do tell all my friends who find out I am into this and want to join me on a hunt.....be ready because once you have truly experienced it, there is no going back....you can not forget what you have opened your mind to and nothing will be the same for you again...you will become aware of them when they are around, you will become a magnet to them, and you will never feel alone again.... (I know the last point is kind of over emphasized....)

Awesome! Thanks for contributing to this debate. It looks like many of us are on the same page when it comes to this stuff.

I belong to a national paranormal online group, well I was sent an email from another member pushing their Investigation team and web page. Well I went to the web page, this group isn't in Michigan, I won't mention who it is. First thing I noticed was every page had music playing. Second thing I noticed is most of the pages were related to making money off it, from small hand painted pictures, psychic readings, ghost tours. I looked at some of the investigation pictures and saw tons of dust orbs they were pushing off as paranormal. I saw a finger in a picture that they claim was a vortex. I can see a picture from a staircase taken looking down where the camera strap is in the picture, they are claiming as a vortex. Now the next two pictures floored me. They have two pictures of moths in a flash that they claim are fairies. Well I already had a good idea this was a bad group. They had a guest book........ now I hate to see sites like this and feel sorry for they people they take advantage of. They claim they are an old fashioned ghost hunting group and use feelings to hunt. Anyway I ....... couldn't resist in telling them they had some great pictures of dust orbs, some of the best i've seen. I was shocked at them removing my message. So I wrote again and also told them they had some of the best pictures of flying moths that i had seen. Once again after a couple minutes my message was deleted. Well I must of picked up some of her energy as at this point I truly felt as if she didn't want to hear the truth. Also with her being a gypsy witch I was afraid she might turn me into a frog ......... Rivet ........ rivet.
Just my opinion ......... and I had to vent ........ hmmm I just got a strange craving for flying insects.

Well Ugly gasp Im shocked....You mean you were not gonna buy the Big foot tour....Oh wait wrong topic....lol

In all seriousness, Amber is right this will go on till the Ghost Hunting In thing dies, and people go back to viewing us as geeks, freeks, and idiots...I know were not, but when the main stream media thought of us that way, at least they weren't using us to make money.....and to scam ppl...Im willing ot bet this same group charges to Investigate to lol......Wait dang keep mixing my topics up

I do not have a problem sharing information. How else are the newbies suppose to learn. I do have a problem with how some shows will falsify some activity to make ratings (Most Haunted). The show must be about the investigation and the people only. Not showmanship. That burns my tushy. Most Haunted has been at the top of my shit list since I found out they falsify information (i.e. throwing rocks, knocking, sounds, etc.). It is people like this that need a real as kicking. And as far as the people who got into this field for fame and glory, well I only have this to say to you! Get out now!

Oh yeah, I've always heard that about Most Haunted. BS! And Ugly, that's just ridiculous what you ran into. But those sites are everywhere when you look around! Just tacky, bad web design...I mean, you don't have to be a major programmer to just make something simple people can easily look at! And the damn dust orbs...it just gets embarrassing. For every one person out there taking this stuff seriously, there are 100 people like the page Ugly ran into...just visit Myspace's paranormal community. It's awful.

As much as I am getting told off for pointing out about their pictures I am still trying to offer them ideas to make a better paranormal group. I will see if they accept. This is that last letter I was sent.

I would really know what is your problem knocking the group I belong to (group name removed)? Our group has two ordained ministers and we DO NOT PUT anything fake on our website or anything else. We go by our intuition. And what we are led to/by. I am a Spiritualist. I am guided by the angels and my spirit guides. And I can see that it's obvious that you aren't happy with your life so you have to TRY to cause problems for others.
If you can't say anything nice, and not lie then you really shouldn't say anything at all. What negative energy you keep trying to send out is/will come back to you two fold.
We are an honest group that has the same ideas, beliefs, etc. Everyone is entitled to their opinion but not when it becomes bitter slander.
As far as the fairies, well until one flies by you, you may not believe. Because to be quite honest, until I recently had one fly very slow by me, I didn't believe in them. Only in angels. Now after seeing them up close, I do believe in them. YOU HAVE TO SEE TO BELIEVE.

I am not sure if I need an expert in demonology or what to deal with these two ORDAINED ministers. I still chuckle about the fairy comment, they are insects in the pictures not fairies. look for yourself.

Lighten up! LOL! Take a long good looking in realism. You might be able to laugh at a lot of stupid stuff. And trust me there a lot of stupid people and stuff to really make you say ok, and laugh you tushy off to see how stupid that really is.

My god...the thing that annoys me the most within the paranormal community is the amount of "Flakes" that are out there. I believe in all kinds of stuff and I'll see a damn fairy any day. But it's almost like some of these people are so "out of the box" that they've found their way back inside the box, and it's an even smaller box, because they see a picture of a moth, and think it's a fairy. You should take a picture of a moth at night and send it to them. And while you are trying to get them to see that what they are doing doesn't put them in the best light, there will always be people that look at that moth and see a fairy because they are told it's a fairy. I'm reminded of the Cottingsley fairies from back in the early 20th century. Even Sir Arthur Conan Doyle believed this photo as did a lot of people!

Love this post...and don't know how I haven't hopped in here sooner.

Paranormal Today has it's goods and bads...as it always has, and always will.

Obviously, the media has really hyped and put a spotlight on anything paranormal...shows about hunting ghosts to hunting aliens to hunting bigfoot and exotic creatures have stormed the airwaves. There is the good and the bad. I think it's great that these topics are getting so much coverage...the bad, some of the virtually scripted or overly dramatic. And because of this, every regular Joe thinks he can do what these people on TV do....and as we all know here, it's not quite that simple.
Overall though, I think it's brought an overal positive spotlight on the paranormal community, even though it's given birth to hundred to thousands of wanna-groups across the world...but everyone has to start somewhere...and all the orb-chasers will eventually get some learnin' in them and realize that its an insignifigant fraction to what the paranormal world offers.

Group rivalries and sharing evidence.
This is why I think this site is unbelievable. Everyone here is very supportive, and open about pretty much anything. Those are pretty rare and respectable attributes about everyone here.
I think we all have a common goal and want to open up the little bits and pieces of the paranormal that we currently comprehend. Without sites like this...without magazines...books...media...we'd be left to fend for ourselves, whereas if we all converse and mix our thoughts and ideas...our learning capabilities are maximized to it's fullest.

I didn't intend to chatter on, so I'm cutting myself off.
But great post!
_mike

ps...paranormal ghostly fairies are FTW
hehehe.

All good points Mike:) It's true that the people out there who are chasing "orbs" right now will hopefully learn more if they are truly interested in learning about the paranormal.
And I agree that the one good thing that has come out of this paranormal media boom is the fact that people think it's 'cool' now and not so strange. The word "EVP" is known to a lot more people then ever and when you tell people what you do, you don't always get the raised eyebrow...only now, you get, "Oh I watch those guys on TV!!"
We already had that just today while I'm in the Smokey Mountains. We're in Knoxville at a gas station and my boyfriend was wearing a Grimstone Inc. shirt (fellow Michigan investigators), the shirt says the name, logo and says, "paranormal investigators" and the lady behind the counters goes, "hey I watch that on TV!" So there ya have it LOL!

But seriously, thanks for the compliments on the site and the forums. These forums have really proven to be a great place to chat and everyone is extreamley nice and open minded here.